Me, I am just talking about navigating in bad visibility with my own imitations to process multiple pieces of information. I make it a point to know where I am. Radar tells me where other people are. If I want to talk to them, which I do in deep fog, I can call them up by their position. Believe me, the guys transmitting AIS show up just fine on my radar. It's the marginal non AIS targets I am worried about, the ones that only proper radar tuning will detect. In zero viz, I am like L Keith, glued to the radar, some glances to the plotter (no overlays for me either). Ann is on watch on the foredeck. Sorry, I can't walk and chew gum and properly helm a boat at the same time. Yes. AIS is very cool and very nice to have, but if it distracts you from understanding the entire picture, not so good. And anyway, today, the guys transmitting AIS are almost all the guys I am going to be voluntarily giving way to anyway... not like I am going to be asking to negotiate a crossing with the Queen mary II, an oil tanker or the Block Island ferries of the world on the waters of the eastern seaboard.
AIS
- Thread starter jacko
- Start date
Agree 100% will Lkeith and BillyIII
Pascal it's not really an issue that AIS can pick up a ship beyond radar range, but it can. But when I'm down on the 6 mi range looking for you little guys in your toys it's nice to discover that containership out there at 20 mi, coming at me at a combined speed of 40 knots. And it's nice to know who he is too, IF I need to talk to him.
AIS is just one more tool at your disposal. If you don't need it, don't use it; but it CAN come in handy.
Pascal it's not really an issue that AIS can pick up a ship beyond radar range, but it can. But when I'm down on the 6 mi range looking for you little guys in your toys it's nice to discover that containership out there at 20 mi, coming at me at a combined speed of 40 knots. And it's nice to know who he is too, IF I need to talk to him.
AIS is just one more tool at your disposal. If you don't need it, don't use it; but it CAN come in handy.
There is a similar discussion going on about this on the Great Loop discussion list, and a well seasoned cruiser I know posted this summary which I picked up from the digest this morning/ (Owns a Monk 36, by the way): Obviously one reason I post this is because he largely echos my comments so far on this thread. adn to a large degree those of others who cruise their boats long distances:
Perhaps this might help some folks put into context what AIS can and cannot
do. It's not my intent to beat a dead horse. These were some thoughts that
came up in an offlist exchange that I thought might add more light than heat
to this discussion. Item 1 is history, 2-12 are as I have personally observed
them over the last 6 years and 30K miles of cruising (several trips up the
Hudson to the Thousand Islands, the Great Loop, the A-ICW 9 times, the NJ ICW
from Cape May to Manasquan twice, the Abacos and the St. Lawrence Seaway):
1. AIS was developed under SOLAS for COMMERCIAL SHIPPING, *not* pleasure
craft. It is an international (SOLAS) safety standard. In the US, the FCC
did not type approve Class-B (pleasure boat scale systems) AIS units until
long after they were available from manufacturers; they came within
nano-meters of not type approving Class-B in the US at all (for what I now
realize were pretty good reasons!). They were "encouraged" to approve by
Homeland Security, who thinks they can keep track of *all* boats with motors
using AIS; just try to imagine that chaos!!!
2. Not all commercial vessels are required (by coast guard regulation) to
carry AIS
3. Only a small percentage - the largest gross tonnage - commercial vessels
actually carry AIS
4. Small harbor tugs and work barges *do not* carry AIS
5. Most Moran and McAllister ocean-going tugs do carry AIS; they do not -
will not - respond to Class-B callers!
6. The Navy and the Coast Guard carry, but usually do not use, AIS (run in
"quiet" mode); the bad guys might see them coming, dontcha know...
7. On the Inland Rivers, only large towboats that operate in the controlled
ports of New Orleans and Mobile carry AIS; that's accounts for 75% - 80% of
large river tows; Casino boats do not generally carry AIS.
8. On the East Coast A-ICW, only a very small percentage of commercial
traffic carries AIS; only a slightly higher percentage on the gulf coast ICW,
and the bulk of that in the area of New Orleans and Mobile
9. In NY Harbor, only a small percentage of commercial traffic carries AIS
10. Some of the Staten Island Ferries carry; some do not. All ferries or
cruise boats carrying 150 passengers or more have a security zone associated
with them, so if you're near one, AIS or not, you're already in trouble.
11. Water taxis and fast ferries from Atlantic Highlands and Weehawken *do
not* carry AIS
12. Most large ships do filter AIS in harbor areas, and on the Chesapeake and
Delaware Bays
By far, the area where having an AIS receiver was of the greatest value to
Sanctuary was on the Tennessee River and the Tenn-Tom Waterway, where we could
call tows by name; it was also of moderate value in the Tennessee River Lake
country. It was useless in Mobile Harbor because of the number of hits,
mostly from moored ships. This is typical of all large harbors, including NY,
Elizabeth, Baltimore, Norfolk/Portsmouth, Morehead City, Charleston and
Savannah. It has never been of any value on the Neuse River, Pamlico or
Albemarle Sounds, Cape Fear or Beaufort River, or Port Royal Sound. It is of
little value on the Chesapeake and Delaware Bays, and Tampa Bay, where the big
fellows all run in well documented channels. It is of no value on the
Chesapeake Bay Rivers (James, York, Rappahannock, Potomac), the Gulf-ICW or in
South Florida generally. It was of little value on the Great Lakes, except
possibly for night crossings, I guess.
That leaves the remaining issue of clutter. That's obviously up to each
captain, but my advocacy remains with a dual-channel receiver, not a
transponder. Just keep a good helm watch. At trawler speeds, that's plenty
of safety margin!
Perhaps this might help some folks put into context what AIS can and cannot
do. It's not my intent to beat a dead horse. These were some thoughts that
came up in an offlist exchange that I thought might add more light than heat
to this discussion. Item 1 is history, 2-12 are as I have personally observed
them over the last 6 years and 30K miles of cruising (several trips up the
Hudson to the Thousand Islands, the Great Loop, the A-ICW 9 times, the NJ ICW
from Cape May to Manasquan twice, the Abacos and the St. Lawrence Seaway):
1. AIS was developed under SOLAS for COMMERCIAL SHIPPING, *not* pleasure
craft. It is an international (SOLAS) safety standard. In the US, the FCC
did not type approve Class-B (pleasure boat scale systems) AIS units until
long after they were available from manufacturers; they came within
nano-meters of not type approving Class-B in the US at all (for what I now
realize were pretty good reasons!). They were "encouraged" to approve by
Homeland Security, who thinks they can keep track of *all* boats with motors
using AIS; just try to imagine that chaos!!!
2. Not all commercial vessels are required (by coast guard regulation) to
carry AIS
3. Only a small percentage - the largest gross tonnage - commercial vessels
actually carry AIS
4. Small harbor tugs and work barges *do not* carry AIS
5. Most Moran and McAllister ocean-going tugs do carry AIS; they do not -
will not - respond to Class-B callers!
6. The Navy and the Coast Guard carry, but usually do not use, AIS (run in
"quiet" mode); the bad guys might see them coming, dontcha know...
7. On the Inland Rivers, only large towboats that operate in the controlled
ports of New Orleans and Mobile carry AIS; that's accounts for 75% - 80% of
large river tows; Casino boats do not generally carry AIS.
8. On the East Coast A-ICW, only a very small percentage of commercial
traffic carries AIS; only a slightly higher percentage on the gulf coast ICW,
and the bulk of that in the area of New Orleans and Mobile
9. In NY Harbor, only a small percentage of commercial traffic carries AIS
10. Some of the Staten Island Ferries carry; some do not. All ferries or
cruise boats carrying 150 passengers or more have a security zone associated
with them, so if you're near one, AIS or not, you're already in trouble.
11. Water taxis and fast ferries from Atlantic Highlands and Weehawken *do
not* carry AIS
12. Most large ships do filter AIS in harbor areas, and on the Chesapeake and
Delaware Bays
By far, the area where having an AIS receiver was of the greatest value to
Sanctuary was on the Tennessee River and the Tenn-Tom Waterway, where we could
call tows by name; it was also of moderate value in the Tennessee River Lake
country. It was useless in Mobile Harbor because of the number of hits,
mostly from moored ships. This is typical of all large harbors, including NY,
Elizabeth, Baltimore, Norfolk/Portsmouth, Morehead City, Charleston and
Savannah. It has never been of any value on the Neuse River, Pamlico or
Albemarle Sounds, Cape Fear or Beaufort River, or Port Royal Sound. It is of
little value on the Chesapeake and Delaware Bays, and Tampa Bay, where the big
fellows all run in well documented channels. It is of no value on the
Chesapeake Bay Rivers (James, York, Rappahannock, Potomac), the Gulf-ICW or in
South Florida generally. It was of little value on the Great Lakes, except
possibly for night crossings, I guess.
That leaves the remaining issue of clutter. That's obviously up to each
captain, but my advocacy remains with a dual-channel receiver, not a
transponder. Just keep a good helm watch. At trawler speeds, that's plenty
of safety margin!
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- 12212
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- 12,219
bill,
the one thing that i am sure of is that every situation is different and there isnt' a one size fits all solution. for instance, since you brought up wifi, while i never said wifi wasn't "useful" there are situations where on board wifi is the only way to go to access the web but depending on on where you cruise and depending on your needs, it may not be the best option. In the US for instance, I find cellular to be much more convenient and reliable and i'd much rather rely on a dedicated card or even tethering than hoping to find a reliable hotspot. Now as i've said, if someone is heading to the Bahamas the Rogue is the way to go.
one brush cant' paint it all.
One reason i often argue these topics is because i am sometimes worried than inexperienced boaters will read these threads misunderstand some of the comments. Let's face it... most of us, myself included, do not spend enough time in restricted visibility and i am very concerned about the risks of a guy spending too much time focusing and processing unneeded data and missing the more important thing. as you said, it takes practice to get the most out of radar and to answer the OP's question, I think that getting a better radar and spending time learning how to use it is a lot better (and safer) than adding things like AIS.
willie, i'm not debating the benefits of AIS in commercial vessels, again manned by trained crew. but for us running our small toy boats as you put it, rule nr one is stay out of the way and rule nr 2 is make your intentions clear. If i'm running in a commercial channel,I make sure that the commercial traffic realize early enough that I am aware of them by staying out of the channel if deep enough otherwise right on the very edge. In a crossing situation, my course change will be obvious so that the guys on the bridge dont' have to worry about my intentions. Way too many times, I hear commercial traffic hailing small boats (often without success) trying to figure out what the other guy is trying to do. there is no need for that if as a "small toy driver" you take appropriate action. And yes, appropriate action may require a VHF call when your intentions cant be made clear enough... like "large commercial vessel inboud CD canal by G32 this is xxxx, will stay on the edge of the channel and see you on one whistle". I dont' need AIS for that...
again, there is theory and there is the real world. See what George posted... this is an accurate description of what the real world looks like and operate. when crossing NY Harbor do you really think it is practical to say that you shuold hail every vessel passing within 2NM?
the one thing that i am sure of is that every situation is different and there isnt' a one size fits all solution. for instance, since you brought up wifi, while i never said wifi wasn't "useful" there are situations where on board wifi is the only way to go to access the web but depending on on where you cruise and depending on your needs, it may not be the best option. In the US for instance, I find cellular to be much more convenient and reliable and i'd much rather rely on a dedicated card or even tethering than hoping to find a reliable hotspot. Now as i've said, if someone is heading to the Bahamas the Rogue is the way to go.
one brush cant' paint it all.
One reason i often argue these topics is because i am sometimes worried than inexperienced boaters will read these threads misunderstand some of the comments. Let's face it... most of us, myself included, do not spend enough time in restricted visibility and i am very concerned about the risks of a guy spending too much time focusing and processing unneeded data and missing the more important thing. as you said, it takes practice to get the most out of radar and to answer the OP's question, I think that getting a better radar and spending time learning how to use it is a lot better (and safer) than adding things like AIS.
willie, i'm not debating the benefits of AIS in commercial vessels, again manned by trained crew. but for us running our small toy boats as you put it, rule nr one is stay out of the way and rule nr 2 is make your intentions clear. If i'm running in a commercial channel,I make sure that the commercial traffic realize early enough that I am aware of them by staying out of the channel if deep enough otherwise right on the very edge. In a crossing situation, my course change will be obvious so that the guys on the bridge dont' have to worry about my intentions. Way too many times, I hear commercial traffic hailing small boats (often without success) trying to figure out what the other guy is trying to do. there is no need for that if as a "small toy driver" you take appropriate action. And yes, appropriate action may require a VHF call when your intentions cant be made clear enough... like "large commercial vessel inboud CD canal by G32 this is xxxx, will stay on the edge of the channel and see you on one whistle". I dont' need AIS for that...
again, there is theory and there is the real world. See what George posted... this is an accurate description of what the real world looks like and operate. when crossing NY Harbor do you really think it is practical to say that you shuold hail every vessel passing within 2NM?
I know this is completely off topic regarding AIS, but, I am planning on installing radar on my boat this spring, all my electronics right now are Ray Marine, so I will probably go with that, but, is High Definition digital radar worth the cost over digital radar, my research show about a $700 to $900 price fifference. My plotter is a C90Wide screen. I am looking at RD418D or RD418HD models.
At 1 Nautical Mile you are considered in a close quarters situation, which I avoid. Personally, a clearer form of communication would be "Motor Tanker Ruby III (information from AIS) this is xxx, will see you on the one whistle, if that is agreeable with you". Then wait for the Motor Tanker Ruby III to agree/confirma You now have a proper passing agrement
No offense Pascal but a whole lot of small-boat drivers don't understand either your rule 1 (stay out of the way) OR your rule 2 (make intentions clear). Nor do they understand what Ch 13 and 16 are for. They're Darwin Candidates and sometimes the only way to get their attention is 5 shots with the forward whistle.
However when I'm poking around in MY toy at midnight it would be comforting if I had a gadget to tell me there was a heavy in the vicinity and if he was a threat. Not everyone can afford a radar, and some of those who can probably don't have the training to use it anyway. An AIS is a whole lot cheaper and easier to use.
However when I'm poking around in MY toy at midnight it would be comforting if I had a gadget to tell me there was a heavy in the vicinity and if he was a threat. Not everyone can afford a radar, and some of those who can probably don't have the training to use it anyway. An AIS is a whole lot cheaper and easier to use.
- Joined
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- RO Number
- 3223
- Messages
- 640
The problem with that is that many vessels do not carry it. So, you will be run down by the guy without AIS while you are checking out positions for the AIS identified vessels. I maintain it DECREASES situational awareness, by making you think yhou are safer than you really are.
Stmbtwle: Are you really recommending to newbies the use of AIS as one's method of collision avoidance??? Based on your own description of someone lacking basic navigation and seamanship skills being a target market for this product, I believe you are writing a prescription for disaster. It would lull such a boater into a false sense of security. I also happen to think it is worse, and easier to hit a small boat than a ship because now you are endangering other people.
I can understand L Keith being more predisposed to the use of AIS, as he is in one the most AIS intensive areas of the country.
I can understand L Keith being more predisposed to the use of AIS, as he is in one the most AIS intensive areas of the country.
No I'm not... it is just ONE tool in the toolkit. As far as being run down, I imagine by now it's required on all large vessels. If not it will be soon.
In any case I'm pretty sure it would still be safer than stopping your engine and listening for their bow wave.
In any case I'm pretty sure it would still be safer than stopping your engine and listening for their bow wave.
- Joined
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- RO Number
- 824
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- 2,406
Well, it sounds like a whole lot of us agree that it's the person connected to the finger that pushes the buttons, rather than the device connected to the buttons, that makes or breaks it. AIS is like RADAR is like GPS is like LoRAN is like chartplotters is like ARPA/MARPA is like autopilots - all tools to be used in their appropriate capacities by a human operator. Distractions, tunnel vision, false senses of security, loss of situational awareness - you can't blame these on any of those inanimate electronic devices any more than you can blame drunk driving on an automatic transmission.