More boating deaths

It happens EVERY year......when will people learn ?
 
quote:
Originally posted by Double D

It happens EVERY year......when will people learn ?

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They will never learn those that chose to educate themselves through no force of the government are the best boaters in many instances. I took a safe boating NJ State approved course given by a USCG auxilary. However I took additional steps and had a licensed training captain spend 2 1/2 days on the boat with me. But, only after I had read everything I could get my hands on about boat handling and safety and had taken a refresher coarse in Radar and read the book "Radar for Mariners" by David Burch. Then I joined the ABYC to make sure I was properly installing the wiring and plumbing in my then dream boat. Somewhwere during this process that took 1 week I joined this board as an anchored member.
Bill
 
While the fireworks may have been a distraction, the real cause of the accident (again) was high speed in poor visibility (nighttime with shore lights). If they had been traveling at a prudent speed for the conditions the collision if it happened at all would have been minor, with probably no injuries. I wouldn't be surprised if there was alcohol involved too.

So it all boils down to bad judgement and (maybe) ignorance. Not uncommon for sure.

So who wants to re-start the argument about whether boat operators should be licensed with mandatory training?
 
I don't agree with mandatory licensing as it stands. You can not teach common sense or will a person to learn if they could care less. Putting large penalties don't work either if they did this country would have no drinking or drug problems..
Bill
 
quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

I don't agree with mandatory licensing as it stands. You can not teach common sense or will a person to learn if they could care less. Putting large penalties don't work either if they did this country would have no drinking or drug problems..
Bill

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I agree 100 percent. Making fools take a boating course will not make them less of a fool.

The USCG Aux teaches courses and they sit there daydreaming about how smart they are and learn nothing. They learn nothing.

Further look at all the FA's that take defensive driving courses to reduce their insurance mpremiums. It achieves nothing. They still drive drunk and dangerous.

An FA is for life....

PS FA= Flaming Arb2@gr5trb2@gr5thole
 
Well, honestly, I don't understand what makes boating so sacred. Why should boating be any different from driving a car, riding a motorcycle or flying an airplane? All three of which require some demonstration of knowledge and skills. Why is boating so different that anyone who has the money can buy a boat and just hit the waterways? There are lots of rules and laws that govern proper boating so why should a boater be exempt from learning at least the basics?

No, it will not end accidents just as having a drivers license doesn't stop traffic accidents. But surely having to demonstrate some degree of knowledge, competitancy and skill can't hurt and, who knows, maybe it would save a few lives along the way.

Bob
 
quote:
Originally posted by JoeShoes

quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

I don't agree with mandatory licensing as it stands. You can not teach common sense or will a person to learn if they could care less. Putting large penalties don't work either if they did this country would have no drinking or drug problems..
Bill

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I agree 100 percent. Making fools take a boating course will not make them less of a fool.

The USCG Aux teaches courses and they sit there daydreaming about how smart they are and learn nothing. They learn nothing.

Further look at all the FA's that take defensive driving courses to reduce their insurance mpremiums. It achieves nothing. They still drive drunk and dangerous.

An FA is for life....

PS FA= Flaming Arb2rb2@gr5tgr5trb2rb2@gr5tgr5thole

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No offense, but this line of logic is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Everything you profess can also be said of drivers licenses and motorcycle riders licenses. So, why not just do away with those as well?

Bob
 
Bob the reasoning behind a DL and single operation of an aircraft can not be compared. However drivers licenses are there to penalize people and generat income for the states. There is no consitutional amendment that one have a drivers license it is done State by State. As far as pilots licenses there are various levels, instrument rated, private, commercial, single engine, dual prop and jet (various levels) of training required. Boating on the other hand is much more closely tied to driving a car as far as enforcement and accidents. While both require some hand to eye coordination and knowing the rules of the road it seems the emphasis on the boating license is on safety equipment and jetski operation. There really is little you can take away from the empasis placed on basic boating safety coarse. My son at age 16 took theclass with my wife and oldest son. None of them can safetly operate our Mainship without me. My wife is ok but she panicks too easy. My middle Son was more like me he took an actual interest in learning more then can be taught in the safe boaters USCG Auxillary program. Believe it or not many people have to get coached to get through the most basic boaters safety class and get their card. Are they any safer it's debatible but I would say they walk away knowing there are repercussions and penalties for unsafe operation of a boat. To give it teeth it should be tied to your drivers license as it is in BUI. However this basic training doen't give people the ability to jump in a mid sized boat and be able to instinctively react the proper way for all the various sea conditions one can encounter when piloting a boat. My wife has gotten better because I sure as heck want my partnet to instictively know what to do if I have a medical condition that incapacititaes me or one of us was to fall overboard say at night. This requires a dose of common sense and not panicing, and common sense can not be taught. It's something you either have it or you don't.
Bill
 
It's a shame that people ever die on the water but the stepped up LEO presence after these things can be really annoying. Some of us do follow the rules and multiple "safety inspections" gets old fast.
 
Bill, inadequacy of existing programs is not an excuse and not knowing enough is no excuse for knowing nothing at all. If it's inadequate make it better.

Yes I fully understand the various levels of pilots licenses just as there is with drivers licenses. A guy driving a semi-truck loaded with TNT has to have a different license than a guy driving a Honda Civic. A guy flying a Stensen Tail Dragger is not in any way qualified to fly a Boeing 777 and the licenses and tickets are comensurate.

So, why not the same with boats? If you want to operate a canoe, that's one level, if you own and operate a 40' Silverton, that's another level. No one ever said it has to be a "one size fits all" program which, because of funding, is exactly what it currently is.

I totally agree that the boating educational sysyem as it exists is just one inch away from totally useless. But that is not justification for having none.

All I know is, I really get tired reading about people, kids in particular, dieing because some nimrod didn't know what he was doing or didn't understand the consequences of his actions and conduct out on the water.

Anyway, I sure wish more people on the water were as knowledgable and aware as most of the ROs on this board. If that were the case a lot more kids would live to reach maturity.

As for LE activity on the water, I agree, safety checks are annoying and, IMHO, should be a minor part of LE activity. I'd much rather see them occupying their time detecting and citing for unlawful activity. when driving my car I have never been stopped for a "Safety Check" but I sure as heck been stopped for speeding. Maybe if a LE had stopped that grossly overloaded 34' Silverton in Oyster Bay some kids would still be smiling.

Bob
 
quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

Well, honestly, I don't understand what makes boating so sacred.
Bob

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Boating is so frighteningly easy to learn.
No license is necessary for anything less than; 'for Hire' and other commercial vehicles.
The only thing a boater need learn is:
"I'll never hit any other boat or object with a boat in my command:"
And knowing the Hitter or his Estate will be liable for all damages should be enough!
 
I took a boating course when I got my fiest boat. I did learn things. Navigation. Reading buoys. Understanding the effects of wind and tides.
All this is good stuff.
Throw in a season on anchoring, the effects of a imbalanced and overloaded boat, the best location for life preservers, how to escape a burning boat, how to use a flare, nighttime boating and the effects of lights, proper fueling, trailering, navigating fog and bad weather, alcohol and speed, etc.

Not talking a course but a education. With a test. With real life stories and videos.
I would be honored to pass that test and every "real" boater should be.
50% of boaters are aholes who plunk down a wad of cash and get a boat.
I am pro course and education. If it saves 1 life, it is worth it.

I will bet that although the guy who owned the boat that capsized in oyster bay was a seasoned boater, he had no idea how easily a overloaded and imbalanced boat could tip. If he did he wouldn't have that any people aboard or he would of managed their locations better.
When I had 13 people on my boat I instructed certain people to stay in certain seats underway. I showed everyone where the life jackets were located.
I left extra life jackets up top and in cockpit. I claim full responsibility for my crew.
 
Dave putting 23 people or more in a Silverton 34C is an example of you can't teach common sense. Since they no longer teach basic geometry in school anymore I guess that gives the seasoned Captain an excuse?
Bill
 
Again I disagree. Though common sense is hard to teach. If they had a video and they showed a boat that had no weight limit and they loaded it up and showed the effects of a broadside wave with imbalancing on the boat then people would learn common sense. Some things are learned. Ask one of our pilots. Look at the recent air France disaster ruling. Common sense was pull up. Training taught opposite. Good example where common sense was wrong. Education from people with common sense helps. Ever try to assemble something using common sense without reading the instructions?
 
quote:
Originally posted by CurrentSea

Again I disagree. Though common sense is hard to teach. If they had a video and they showed a boat that had no weight limit and they loaded it up and showed the effects of a broadside wave with imbalancing on the boat then people would learn common sense. Some things are learned. Ask one of our pilots. Look at the recent air France disaster ruling. Common sense was pull up. Training taught opposite. Good example where common sense was wrong. Education from people with common sense helps. Ever try to assemble something using common sense without reading the instructions?

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Nope I don't agree these are the same stupid people that watch the DARE crash movies in high school and get into a fatal drinking & driving accident on graduation night. You give the average person too much credit Dave we have a really dumb lazy society.
Some of these peope enjoy the faces of death series what does it teach them?
Bill
 
Some education is better than no education.
Like I said I have learned a lot from courses and reading.
I think others can benefit.
 
In our state the boater education program is a joke. It's a way for the state to collect additional taxes. They do cover some of the most basic stuff. The rules are taught but never inforced in the real world. No one get pulled over for not standing down, or signaling before you leave the slip. SO there is no penality for not knowing or doing it wrong. Real education is the key to safer boating. USCG courses are the real deal. Expecting the goverment to force people into learning... I don't think it will work. Websites such as this can do a lot to help people if they choose to read and learn.

IMO Fireworks and boats are really so far beyond common senses; anyone who plays with boats like this may have to learn the hard way.
 
Unfortunately even at the USCG license level, the curriculum is a joke too... There is really nothing about night vision, passenger loads, and things directly related about speed and / or night time operations

While it is assumed that folks who take the OUPV or master classes should already know all this, many don't and / or take the class to learn and improve their skills

Smart enforcement and education would be good start. When an LEO pulls you over fit a safety check, it really doesn't accomplish much which couldn't be done dock/ramp side. If safety checked were done at the dock of at the ramp, Patrol boats whether USCG or local LEOs could then focus on the more important things like excessive speed, overloaded boats and other dangerous behavior.

For instance, there are busy ramps next to our marina... It s usually a zoo out there with boats coming in too fast, over crowded, drunk or with missing lights... I have never seen any boats patrolling the channel and fairway when it s busy. Reckless operation is a very general concept which could be used to cover a range of things, even using spotlights as headlights!

If folks knew that they could get pulled over, their attitude would change very quickly.
 
Very sad. As already stated though- going fast at night in limited visibility....not a good combo. In many of these instances the outcome would be much different if they were traveling 7-10 MPH instead of 30-40.
 
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