Questions on painting a wood boat.

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Thudpucker

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I've been thnking of building my self a little Crappie Boat. A Jon boat about 10' long and 4' wide in the middle. I have a nice set of drawings from "Lewis Boats" in Iowa.
RowPunt2_Linesplan.jpg


I dont want to mess with Glue and Fiberglass or Epoxy or any other type of glue.
This is not going to be Marine plywood either.
Its a 10', 1/4" plywood Jon boat with a split rear seat, A sliding center seat for rowing and reaching. A small deck up front for Temp setting's.

The question comes on Painting this thing and keeping the wood in good shape.
Its on a Trailer and kept in a barn when not fishing.

I dont think it even needs Epoxy paint. Plain ol' Oil based Porch n' Deck paint. Oil of some kind on the Hardwood.

I'm so confused on this painting and Epoxy stuff. Most people think I should Completly enclose the wood in a coat of Fiberglass and Epoxy. NOPE! I dont want a plastic coated wood boat. I want it water resistant because the Paint sunk into the wood several thousandths of an inch. When the wood dries out, I dont want it looking like it needs sanding and Re-painting.

So what do you experts offer as instructions?
What kind of paint and Primer etc.
Remember, no glue and no Fiberglass.
 
Even Chris-Craft used marine plywood when they weren't planking but if that's the way you want to go...

Once the plywood has a final cut seal it (including edges) with at least two coats of Pettit clear sealer mixed one part paint to eight parts sealer. Seal the inside of voids with one coat of Clear Sealer only, no paint mix. When this has dried, fill the plywood voids as well as possible with Sikaflex 291 LOT using an epoxy hypo to penetrate the void as far as possible. Once the Sikaflex has fully cured seal it over with the same sealer/paint mixture.

Once the boat is fully assembled, give it another coat of sealer/paint and sand it smooth with 120 grit.

Give it as many coats of Interlux Pre-Kote primer as you need if you require additional fairing. Sand each coat with 120 grit until transparent.

Finish with your topside enamel. I'd recommend Pettit Easypoxy (it has the most colors and it's not epoxy) or Interlux Brightside.

I can't imagine putting a boat together without some sort of bedding compound like Sikaflex. Even back in the old days they used tar.
 
Good evening yzer. I expected a reply from you as I know you love your wooden boats.

All the wood boats I have experience with, the ones from way back in the 20's and on did use Tar for a filler. Sometimes it was Tar in rolled up chunks of Canvas. The Decks of my Chris Craft 32' were canvass soaked in paint. The wood beneath was still in pretty good shape because the wood was good stuff, but the paint did not sink into the wood at all.

This little boat will be modern day Plywood. The Mfg says the Glue is all the same for all the class's of plywood.
Voids on one side, in the middle etc are the only difference in the wood. The treating of the wood is a bit different for Marine and Treated (green) Plywood. This Mfg don't make Marine in 1/4".

This little boat should last 10 years if I put it together tightly. Its not at all like the Chris Craft or the Trojan I just looked at.

I'm wondering if a Sealer and/or Primer is even necessary.
The idea is to get the Paint (or something) to seep a long way into the wood.

Water is going to get into the wood someway. It can get back out if the paint will let it.

Filling the voids with the syringe is a great idea. Water sitting in a void is the start of wood rot.
I've always wanted to try and spot a void in 1/4" plywood with a 500 Watt bulb on the other side of the wood. I wonder if the voids would show up?

This is a little fishing boat and will always be dirty and rough looking. I don't intend to sand anything except the outside, bottom of the hull.
I'll sand that between coats because I want this little thing to glide through the water. That will be the really smooth painted surface. The inside will be fine in a rough finish as that will help keep the glare from the sun diffused.
 
Chris-Craft never used a sealer on the planking or frames, they just painted them. I'm not familiar with how they handled plywood hulls. Chris-Craft never intended their wooden boats to last as long as they did. It's only good maintenance that keeps them around. The sealer under paint is an extra step that helps the finish last longer than they intended.

I always use Pettit Clear sealer as a primer for varnish and mixed as primer for enamel paints. Clear sealer is very high in oil content and penetrates deeper than varnish or paint. It also includes naptha and is nasty too work with. It will eat your sinuses quick. With pieces the size your're working with I'd recommend using an organic filter respirator unless you are working outside in a stiff breeze. Those respirators aren't that expensive at the hardware store. Clear sealer also cures to a more flexible coating than paint or varnish. Pettit Clear Sealer was originally developed for sealing marine plywood during WW2.

Use that sealer/paint mix and the wood will be as pickled as if you used epoxy but the paint will stick a lot better.

I've used Sikaflex to fill voids in a few plywood pieces on the boat. These were small and I didn't need marine grade for them. It works as long as you don't need to put a load-bearing screw through it.

Look at the Pettit Ship n' Deck enamels, too. Those are the duck boat camo colors.

My boat has the original painted duck canvas on top of the cabin and forward deck. Chris-Craft used a goo called Airball to size the stuff. You are correct, they didn't seal or paint the plywood underneath, a major oversight IMO.
 
Pettit clear sealer.
I like the idea of 'Rich in oil', as the wood is oil and the two will meld good.
That may be the information I think I was looking for.
I wanted the best paint protection I could get for the wood, without going to any Epoxy or Polyester.

I have in mind a method of covering all the 'ends' of the Plywood with the hardwood trim. The sealer on the ends, under the hardwood, should help keep the water from entering the ply's. At least in rivers and rushes.

PS: its interesting that CC never intended the boats to last as long as they have.
I cut up two CC's while in Ketchikan.
The Fasteners were the biggest problem. Down in the For foot and along the keel, and under the engines the fasteners were all Nail-sick. Some of the wood was just plain pithy where the air couldn't get to it.

I had a Plywood Tolly Craft 23' boat a guy had been living in. It had rot in the chine but that Plywood was as sound as the day the boat was built. I wish we could get that kind of ply wood again.
 
Whoops! I corrected the sealer/paint mixture. It's one pint of paint to one gallon of Pettit Clear Sealer.
 
Thud ... google Smiths CPES. This is the best stuff for sealing bare wood prior to paint. If you are going to spend the time to make a wood boat, this stuff will make it last!!
 
I used CPES successfully on my Tolly Craft.
Its a great penetrator. If you have any rot the stuff keeps going and going and going...
Later on I found a piece of white Oak and replaced the rotted chine board in the Tolly.
When I took the old piece out, the CPES had followed the rot and became a solid substance, bonding the not-rotted to itself which made a pretty good piece of wood again. I sawed it up in slices to see.

I put a new piece of Marine Ply on the foredeck and sealed it with the CPES also and several places inside the boat. Its good stuff for soaking into the wood and creating a great base for what ever you put on the wood to grip to.

Another source told me CPES is not water proof. Its more like a sponge than a covering.
Fiberglass/Epoxy is not water proof either when applied to wood. I don't know what his point was, but he sounds like a negative (Jealous) observer.

So I decided to go with plain old Oil based paint on this boat.

I still don't understand what Primer is used for? If paint is going to grip and cover, why do we need primer?
What does Sealer do that paint does not do?

Years ago I helped a guy build a bunch of McKenzie river drift boats for the PacNW rivers.
We just oiled the boats before painting. He painted them with a sprayer after we oiled them. I wonder what that was?
It lasted all season. The Boats didn't show any kind of separation anywhere and the paint didn't come off the wood either.
If I knew what that was, I'd do that for this little boat.
We replaced the bottoms of those boats several times in that season.

I called Smith (in 93) and got some good info. I'd love to visit their sales floor.
When I go to a paint store I get a sales pitch, same with lowes. A forum like this is great info without the sales pressure. I want information first. I'll make my own choice when I think I understand what I need. Some kid at a store, selling paint, is not a good information source.
 
There are three sealers I use for bare wood on the boat. All penetrate better than varnish or paint alone and are less likely to crack or lift. Remember, I have a cruiser that sits in the water all year long. It's in a covered slip but due to wind blown rain and condensing fog the boat is wet for much of the winter. Boats that spend most of their time out of the water have different requirements.

1. Pettit Clear Sealer. I use clear sealer alone prior to varnish. The varnish has been on my boat for 12 years and it still looks brand new with a fresh recoat. I mix Clear Sealer with paint as a sealer prior to painting. Unmixed, Clear Sealer dries in a couple of hours and is ready to sand and recoat. Don't sand the first coat. I've never had compatibility issues with this product.

2. CPES (Smith's penetrating epoxy). I don't use it above the waterline for reasons of expense and time. There is such a thing as sealer overkill. CPES is the only sealer I use below the waterline. It's chemically superior to clear sealer or paint vs. water. However, CPES can be fussy about the coats that go on top of it and should be coated over before fully cured. Still, I've had problems now and then with paint peeling from CPES. I've used and removed CPES and Clear Sealer before. CPES will penetrate much better than Clear Sealer only on the end grain of the wood. CPES will not penetrate the surface of a quarter-sawn planks any deeper than Clear Sealer.

3. Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. This is a polyurethane that flows and penetrates exactly like CPES but has a much higher build. Expensive, but fills cracks and weathered joins completely and permanently and overcoats very well.

There you have it. Each sealer has it's purpose. Sealers and primers are there to improve adhesion of the finish coats. Top coats are there to resist water, weather, UV, and physical wear. Primers are also used as an intermediate layer between coats that may be incompatible. High build primer coats are used for the purpose of fairing out an uneven surface: you put on multiple coats and sand most of it away providing a smooth surface for the finish coat.
 
Outstanding Data!
Thanks a bunch.

CPES is out of the question back here because of the Shipping.

I hope, (if I ever really do this little boat) that I dont need Captain Tollys. I want it to be closly cut and assembled so that Sealer and Paint will be all that's needed.

What about the Oil yzer? Did you ever hear of that? Other than Teak oil I mean.
 
Tung oil is another superior oil for marine use. Along with linseed oil, tung oil is one of the prime ingredients of clear sealer and varnish.
 
Thud:
If all you want is cheap and easy, you can make this boat with plane old exterior plywood from Lowes/Depot. Caulk the seams with any waterproof caulk, and paint with oil based enamel such as Rust-oleum or the like. If it is stored indoors out of the weather as you said it would easily last 10 years or longer. I built a boat just like this when I was a kid. Now my kid has a similar one going on five years now. I don't see why his won't last another five years. Cheap and dirty, but won't pass the test of the purists.
My opinion.
FWIW
eric
 
Exterior plywood is fine but I'd spend a little extra and go with marine paint. NOT epoxy as the wood will expand and contract some and any HARD paint will crack. Same for most hard "enamels". IMO polyurethane works best (Brightside, EasyPoxy). I've tried hardware-store polyurethane but usually ended up with a mildew issue that doesn't seem to occur with marine paint.

You can save money by priming with a good oil-base primer. Make sure spend extra care on the edges of the plywood.

I'd also spend a few extra bucks and use bronze boat nails. Once steel (even galvanized) nails start to rust they'll bleed all over the place and it's an endless battle keeping it looking nice.

LOVE the lines of that little boat! I'm building something similar in my garage now.
With that much rocker it would row and tow quite well, but you'll probably need to add a skeg to make it track straight.
 
Oh thank you Eric n' Willie.
You guys are re-reinforcing my ideas.

I spent some time on Google last night looking up Tung oil and some extracts and their uses.
With Tung oil they want you to thin the first application 1 Part Tung: 2 parts Thinner!
The reason is to speed up the drying so you can get the second coat on before the first coat dry's.
That way they are linked.
After the third coat, solid oil, you have to wait a long time and then you can paint with an Oil based paint. (if you want to paint) With Tung oil, paint is not necessary and it stays in the wood forever.
You can get fancy and heat the wood or the Oil/thin mix, but that gets complicated. Its bad enough that the Tung oil is about a three day ordeal.
Another bene of Tung oil is keeping the wood in shape. The UV rays don't kill the wood quite as bad as it would be with no application or some paints with no UV protection built in. They also said the wood is rendered impervious to water forever! Que?

Post a photo or two of your Garage boat Willie. I'm still postulating over exactly how to put the bottom/side joints together. Also the corners etc.
My plan is to make triangular Oak 'inside' corner pieces so they'll hold a screw. The screws are gonna be Brass or Stainless. I don't know which yet.
My outside hardwood will likely be local Oak. We have plenty of it lying around after the storms last winter.

This boat has Rocker because I told the guy it's not likely to ever have a motor other than oars. Its my small lake Crappie boat. Normally I fish by myself so its a one-man boat as well.

For a skeg I am thinking of four 1X2" runners on the bottom. Full length. To keep from scuffing the bottom on landing up front and rear, and the four of them might do the 'Skeg' trick.
I still like my sliding seat idea. Its working well in my Aluminum boat but I continually find things I'd like to change to this new boat will have a better seat arrangement.
 
Thud ... consider bronze fastenings over brass or SS.
 
40-some years ago I built a skiff and on local recommendation I coated all the lumber with 2-3 coats of linseed oil (sorry I can't remember if it was "boiled" or not). Once that all soaked in I built the boat and painted it (common "marine" paint). A year or so later we anchored the boat out as a duck blind and lost it. A year or so later we found it, covered in barnacles but NOT eaten up by worms. A good scraping, sanding, and repainting and the boat was back in service, none the worse for it's experience.

Sorry Thud I have no construction pix and as the boat is currently upside-down on horses awaiting sanding and painting I can't really take any.

However: I built the frames on a jig, (all frames are the same) and glued them together with epoxy. I fastened the chines and the gunnels to the cut-out sides. Then I fastened the sides onto the frames, and after planing the chines to the proper bevel I nailed on the bottom with 1" bronze nails and 5200 in the seams (I don't expect it to fail any time soon). I've also found over the years that "butyl rubber" caulk works really well below the waterline, just this time I decided to try 5200. Finally I glassed the bottom to a couple inches above the chine (not totally necessary). Last I coated the glassed part with gel-coat, but it didn't go on as well as I'd planned so it needs a LOT of sanding which is why the boat isn't already in service. If I had it to do again I'd skip the fiberglass and gel-coat step and just prime and paint the hull.

Hope this is of some help.

Included some pix of the LAST skiff, it's held up quite well after 5-6 years with ordinary galv. nails and NO glass but as you can see it looks like H---. http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i133/stmbtwle/MV Retreat/?action=view&current=100_0118.jpg That pic is a couple years old, it looks a lot worse now (good reason NOT to use galv. nails)!

At least I don't have to worry about it getting stolen!!!!
 
LOL, your right about the stealing part willie. No market for that and a thief would be a fool to keep a boat that's so easily recognized.

Pete your right there. I think I meant bronze.
I know the rule is; "Bronze below the water line and in covered situations, and stainless above the water line and in un-coverd places".
 
Of course if you really want cheap, use BC plywood, galvanized nails, and whatever paint you have in the shop. It'll still be good for 2-3 years. I think the cheapest boat I ever built was about $15 for an 8 footer. That was a while ago; today's prices might be about $50.

Thud; Re the dink... EXACTLY!!!!
 
Silicon bronze fasteners are still very hard to beat for wooden boat work. Not all that expensive by the box, especially off the internet. I'm headed out on the water and coming back Monday. I'll probably do a little varnishing while I'm at anchor. Never ends, but I enjoy it. Have fun on the boat plans.
 
quote:
Originally posted by yzer

Silicon bronze fasteners are still very hard to beat for wooden boat work. Not all that expensive by the box, especially off the internet. I'm headed out on the water and coming back Monday. I'll probably do a little varnishing while I'm at anchor. Never ends, but I enjoy it. Have fun on the boat plans.

Click to expand...

Ahhh the boat life! Makes you wonder how the Poor People live!

I had a 22' Open cedar boat with a little 25 Hp Gray Marine inboard. It had no cabin.
I used to go out in that boat for two or three days by draping a tarp over the flat part of the deck. Had a collapsible Cot and my sleeping bag. I was Tent camping on the water.
I loved it.

I especially liked sitting in the dark with my coffee, and listening to the night sounds while at anchor off the coast of the straight of Juan De Fuca. It was pretty wild in those days.
Sometimes miles of shore line with no houses at all. An executives hi-dollar R&R weekend!
 
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